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OffSet
Superstar
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1297
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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 Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: high elbow |
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why does everyone coach kids to have their elbow at shoulder height when in the high cocked position?
my shoulder is in line with an inch below my wrist when in high cocked
which do i go with?
_________________
5'8 140lbs
81-85 MPH
17 years old
35.1IP, 67K, 52BB, 16H |
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kelvinp
Superstar
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 1063
Location: Waverly, Virginia
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| Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: |
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your elbow should be level or below your shoulder
during the cocked position and release
this prevents injury to the elbow and shoulder
www.chrisoleary.com explains the whole thing
watch nolan ryan pitch (clips)
joel zumaya and billy wagner pitch with their elbow above their shoulder
they throw hard but they both have elbow and shoulder problems
wagner - 3 straight blown saves
zumaya - DL
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$KELVO$
fastball - idk
curve
change
splitter
slider |
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TheWatch
College
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: |
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| kelvinp wrote: |
your elbow should be level or below your shoulder
during the cocked position and release
this prevents injury to the elbow and shoulder
www.chrisoleary.com explains the whole thing
watch nolan ryan pitch (clips)
joel zumaya and billy wagner pitch with their elbow above their shoulder
they throw hard but they both have elbow and shoulder problems
wagner - 3 straight blown saves
zumaya - DL |
Yeah, because Wagner's high elbow caused his 3 blown saves last week 
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To kill a snake, aim for its head. |
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triace
Junior High
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: |
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dont forget how zumayas elbow goes so high that it knocked over the box that separated his shoulder.
and how he's off the dl as of yesterday. |
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3and0
All Star
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 699
Location: Cold Lake, Alberta
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| Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: Re: high elbow |
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| OffSet wrote: |
why does everyone coach kids to have their elbow at shoulder height when in the high cocked position?
my shoulder is in line with an inch below my wrist when in high cocked
which do i go with? |
\
Which is known around here as throwing like a woman |
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xv84
All Star
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 880
Location: California
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| Posted: Jun 21, 2008 Post subject: |
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| kelvinp wrote: |
your elbow should be level or below your shoulder
during the cocked position and release
this prevents injury to the elbow and shoulder
www.chrisoleary.com explains the whole thing
watch nolan ryan pitch (clips)
joel zumaya and billy wagner pitch with their elbow above their shoulder
they throw hard but they both have elbow and shoulder problems
wagner - 3 straight blown saves
zumaya - DL |
Chris O'Leary doesn't know what the inverted W is. You believe everything you read without questioning it?
Zumaya and Wagner have problems because they throw so damn hard. Any pitcher's arm can fall part of it had to endure the external rotation necessary to reach such high velocities. |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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| kelvinp wrote: |
| your elbow should be level or below your shoulder during the cocked position and release this prevents injury to the elbow and shoulderwww.chrisoleary.com explains the whole thing |
Chris has exactly no evidence of what he claims on his site or on the boards he frequents.
| xv84 wrote: |
| Zumaya and Wagner have problems because they throw so damn hard. Any pitcher's arm can fall part of it had to endure the external rotation necessary to reach such high velocities. |
I subscribe to this idea but I don't have evidence for this either. There just is no hard, scientific proof of why pitchers get injured. Only theories that abound. |
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kelvinp
Superstar
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 1063
Location: Waverly, Virginia
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
yes he does its in the article about mark prior
its form a couple months ago |
Theory. Just speak to jd about Chris and his theories about Prior's injuries.
| Quote: |
| the inverted w is when both elbow get above your shoulders |
When and for how long? I'll re-state what I've said many, many times before about this. The elbow drops back down to shoulder level long before external humeral rotation gets into anything that could be seen as an extreme range. Yet he still talks of the high elbow being a problem because of external rotation. The external rotation that happens when the elbow is high is before the forearm becomes vertical. Before!! And the elbow's dropping as it even does that. So, the idea that these guys are getting injured because of the combo of external rotation and a high elbow is just pure vapor. No substance.
We've been over this a bazillion times with Chris. Theories. All theories. No evidence. Anecdotes are not science.
| Quote: |
look at joba chamberlain and tim lincecum
they throw triple digits and are injury free |
For now. It's early. That doesn't mean that they definitely will. Again, no real science behind it. Plenty of pitchers who do not do what Chris speaks of get injured.
If you like what Chris theorizes about and want to follow him, just be aware that it is NOT science, no matter how much his writing sounds like it. You also will find very few knowledgeable individuals on this, or any other, board who agree with his theories.
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fastball - idk
curve
change
splitter
slider |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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kelvinp
I must apologize here. When I attempted to reply, instead of hitting "quote", I hit "edit" mistakenly. This messed up your post. I've tried to resurrect it the best that I could. Here's what I think represents that post. Sorry.
| dm59 wrote: |
| Chris has exactly no evidence of what he claims on his site or on the boards he frequents. |
| kelvinp wrote: |
yes he does its in the article about mark prior
its form a couple months ago
the inverted w is when both elbow get above your shoulders
look at joba chamberlain and tim lincecum
they throw triple digits and are injury free |
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kelvinp
Superstar
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 1063
Location: Waverly, Virginia
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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no problemo
but just about every injured pitcher
chrisoleary's theries can explain the cause
ex
wagner & zumaya -high elbow
kerry wood(younger) - inverted w
curt schilling and smoltz are just old
no offense still good pitchers
their arms are old
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$KELVO$
fastball - idk
curve
change
splitter
slider |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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| kelvinp wrote: |
but just about every injured pitcher chrisoleary's theries can explain the cause
ex
wagner & zumaya -high elbow
kerry wood(younger) - inverted w |
Again, high elbow when? Did you understand what I said about the timing of the elbow dropping relative to the range of external rotation? Also, how does Chris know what really caused their problems? Could be many things. I propose it's because external rotation to the extremes, and at high velocities, is just plain nasty!!! Add conditioning differences and genetics and who knows what it is.
All speculation. What about the injured pitchers who do not do what Chris is speaking of?
Look at it this way. High level, hard throwing pitchers have the humerus go into extreme ranges of external rotation, to the point where the connective tissues are stretched to their limits, regardless of what mechanic got them there. At their limits. It stretches them and they rebound. That's the transfer mechanism of the energy that was generated up until that point. This stretch and rebound is in all of them. Not just the inverted W's, L's, slingers, etc. All of them.
It's just plain nasty business we're dealing with here.
Now, I happen to "believe" (not know, believe) that the M or inverted W may just be harder on those tissues. I said it several years ago on this forum, in discussions on this with Chris, that the violence of the external rotation in this mechanic may cause that stretch and rebound to be more damaging. Chris agrees with me on this but he still talks about the elbow height, which, as I noted in my previous post, isn't what he says it is. That's what I don't get with him. The elbow doesn't stay up there through any extreme range of external rotation of the humerus. |
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kelvinp
Superstar
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 1063
Location: Waverly, Virginia
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| Posted: Jun 22, 2008 Post subject: |
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nolan ryan threw high velocity 27 seasons
no serious injuries
he threw with his elbow below his shoulder during his whole arm motion
so do joba and lincecum
the ball is going a a high velocity not their arms
their arms are moving slower than the ball
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fastball - idk
curve
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