The "New" Pitch

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's my two cents.

First, let me say for the record that pronation is a very good thing. DM's problems are caused by his pronating too little and too late rather than too much.

If you go frame by frame through the video, you will see that his forearm is supinated as his elbow extends (palm faces the 1B side of vertical). After releasing the ball he pronates his forearm (palm is still supinated and facing up at the release point). This is a great example of what I call Late Pronation, which is pronation that is done too late to protect the elbow. It explains his elbow problems.

DM also appears to have an abbreviated arm path during his follow-through, which can cause problems in the back of the rotator cuff, and might explain his shoulder problems.

In terms of the movement of the ball, it looks to me like it's spinning slowly on a nearly vertical axis. This may make it something like a horizontally breaking knuckle curve.

I think you might be able to achieve the same effect by throwing a knuckleball or knuckle curve from a flat, sidearm slot (but that may not be a good idea).

Finally, this is not a football-like release. Instead, it is a very standard release and is a good example of two problems that Dr. Mike Marshall talks about: Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout. Every pitcher's forearm does this as they turn their shoulders and then release the ball.
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[injuryexpert]

Thanks for the interest in my article on the gyroball. It's not a difficult pitch to teach, but it is like every other pitch - it requires a lot of work to figure out if it will be a "game used" pitch. In a perfect world, the ball has a spin very similar to a rifle bullet or football spiral. From the batter's perspective, the ball is spinning clockwise. Instead of dropping as significantly as a slider, the pitch breaks away (from a RHB) sharply.

Biggest problems:
1. Teaching it. It's only been written up in Japanese and my broad-audience attempts at Rob's site and in Saving The Pitcher. It's not difficult - there's a couple easy teaching points - but done wrong you can hurt the elbow.

* Someone mentioned trying this pitch without the severe pronation. Go ahead and try that if you like your surgeon.

My teaching points are "throwing the wrist" (as you release the pitch, the wrist should be stiff and if a line run throuth the bone, it would point at the target.) It's similar, but not the same, as a football throw. Second key is the hard pronation, starting with the fingertips. They impart the rifle spin and start the pronation, so pull down HARD. Finally, it's a "set and forget pitch." The ball has to be inside the hand (pointing to the head) at release. Again, similar to but not same as a football throw.

2. Controlling it. The pitch has a hard break even when thrown wrong. The catcher often has a hard time reading it as well, so it's not a pitch that can be thrown at the HS level with runners on.

2a. The "backup." The gyro has a strange tendency to, once in a while, break in to a RHB instead of away. I have no idea why.

3. Double spin mechanics aren't significantly different than what we see in the US. Synchronising the spin of the hips and humerus is just something most US coaches haven't focused on.

I'm sure that some of your pitchers could use the pitch and if interested in more information, don't hesitate to contact me. My email is available at Baseball Prospectus.
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Will Carroll
Author, Baseball Prospectus, Saving The Pitcher, and The Juice
Host, Baseball Prospectus Radio

[3rdgenerationnation]

Mr. Carroll:

Thank you for taking the time to assist the pitchers, coaches and dads that read these forums. I was very impressed with, "Saving The Pitcher" and have recommended it to other coaches for it's common sense approach to developing and protecting pitchers.
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"Work quickly, change speeds, throw strikes"

[centerfield2150]

Mr. Carroll:

I couldn't locate your email on baseball prosepectus, wondering if you could point me in the right direction.

I'm extremely interested in the Gyroball and think it could be a great pitch, especially since majority of HS players don't know it exists. I'm only 15 and don't know if that's to early, or just fine?

You've already simplified the pitch farther than I could have ever deduced (not a surprise lol), and I was hoping I could take the pitch a step farther and start to work on it.

Thanks for all that you have done for basaeball and pitchers!
_________________
Why not?

"Practice as if you’ve never won, perform as if you’ve never lost, and make sure you leave it all out there on the field, because it will be over sooner than you think."
-Adam Revelette

[CoachKreber]

I just wanted to thank Mr. Will Carroll for commenting on the gyroball and invite him back whenever he has a comment to share. We can all benefit from your knowledge of training pitchers. Thanks!!!!

[jdfromfla]

Wow, you'd think that someone added an additional Christmas to the calender.
I'm just a simple lover of baseball, I've coached kids since 1986, been associated with a couple of Fla State Babe Ruth Champions, a few District champs, been a religious Cubs fan all of my life. My 2 cents may rub you wrong but I think every one of you is NUTS!!!!!!
Do you think that anything is "New" in baseball? Someone mentions a new pitch and every one of you jumps on the band wagon and starts advocating it...TO KIDS, who A) For the most part have yet to control their body enough to throw strikes with a fast ball much less a breaking pitch B) Are willing to jump on-board with the newest and bestest thing on earth just because it's endorsed by "Those who know".
Coach Kreber, you coach at a High School level and scout for the bigs, I find it completely irresponsible that you would gee whiz a pitch that 1 Japanese guy may have mastered (Who has developed elbow and shoulder problems), even though his stats show no uncommon dominance......I suspect that an American throwing the normal variations of pitches of say a Josh Beckett or Greg Maddox would dominate much more than this guy........He's in Japan remember? Now I take nothing away from the Japanese in their caliber of baseball, but I don't see anyone running out there and teaching the motion of Nomo and he's even thrown a no hitter in the bigs.
On this very forum and on Will Carrolls I see kids of 13-16 wanting to step out there and "learn" this thing. I am glad to see one kid from INDIANA be able to throw the thing, woooo maybe he'll get picked up by someone....just prior to his surgery (Dr Jim Andrews may already have him on the radar).
I have nothing against learning and researching, but you are in a position of responsibility, kids who know no better are going to attempt this and I hope your conscience will bare the weight.
Gimmicks are gimmicks until proven over time, Wakefield ain't the first knuckleballer and Kim was not the first submariner, in the modern era only Satchel Paige threw gimmick pitches and got away with it.
Steve Ellis you should wipe out this entire section.
If I offend anyone....tough!
Get over it and grow up none of you are Roger Craig and the split finger didn't get widely taught until many pitchers mastered it at the major league level.
My last thought is that all of you coaches need to put the old ego in neutral and remember you mess with the future of children....There now I feel better.

[centerfield2150]

JD: I can see where your coming from just wanted to put my thoughts to add a little bit.

I'm always curious been diggin up all the baseball ideas and info I could find since young age. I'm just curious to learn more about the pitch, the physics and movement are very interesting to me, and the overall ideas could be possibly applied to other things.

I understand your generlization, however since I'm the only one that is youth asking about it, I'm going to add my note. I realize you say most can't control their body, definately disagree, I throw high amount of strikes, walk few, usually don't get a ton of strikeouts but pitch counts are low with low Opponents BA since they are hitting balls when their down in the count and I hit the spot I want. I think the fact that I am even active on the forum should show I'm not exactly your general young pitcher (I'm not advocating ability, more mental). I've noticed most on the forums are fathers, where I am a lowly freshman, however my opinions and ideas usually hold their own, and above all my work ethic and desire to learn is definatley present, which is probably the prominant thing in this discussion.

Yes their are lots of unknowns with the pitch, being injury possibility (leaning towards other causes with DM), functionality, ability to master, among other things. I have to say 95mph pitch that falls off as hard as the gyro would be hard as heck to hit, no matter what country. (that's DM's speed on it).

To sum it up, players are always looking for an edge, and I think it is worthwhile to atleast learn and research this pitch, without ever picking up a baseball. Yes, I would be ineterested in throwing it, but I want to be further educated in it before chosing either side of the fence. Curveballs and sliders destroy arms every year; I want to learn what the gyro brings to the table.

These are just my opinions/ideas/interpretations, I have high respect for the individuals on the forum as well as their opinion, and look forward to hearing them.
_________________
Why not?

"Practice as if you’ve never won, perform as if you’ve never lost, and make sure you leave it all out there on the field, because it will be over sooner than you think."
-Adam Revelette

[jdfromfla]

It isn' a generalization, and your desire to look deeper speaks volumes also making a commitment to learn more is great, but you hit it on the head...you are not typical, I'm not saying kids can't throw strikes, what I'm saying is that the high school years are those years in which you have to work on fundementals in order to move to the next level, that is not a guess on my part it is a proven thing. To introduce through an "expert" forum the idea that any kid should attempt to largely change the mechanics of pitching, is not in the best interests of those young pitchers. We know all folks interested in playing the game at it's highest levels want every advantage they can possibly have, but then again you don't see people writing books on the tactics of Gaylord Perry, you have to be ethical. To place yourself out their as an expert and then advocare an unproven possibly injurious thing to kids in my book is unthinkable. How many kids will see it and attempt it without any coaching or supervision, just because they saw it and it looked neat? If the pros put it through it's paces and it doesn't cripple the vast majority that throw it, then responsible people can go out and teach the heck out of it, otherwise we might as well go tell a bunch of 9 year olds to use a 6-12 curve as there main pitch and have em throw 100 innings a year.
Good Luck to you ctrfld! Knockem dead!
My thing says I'm a Little Leaguer so you outrank me!

[centerfield2150]

JD: My apologies, I now understand what you had said to a much better degree. I would definately agree with what your saying. I don't know if there's an effective way to put a note/disclaimer on this thread or something?

Kudos to you for coming out and saying it directly. However, I am still very interested in the Gyroball discussion as a whole if people still have input/ideas.
_________________
Why not?

"Practice as if you’ve never won, perform as if you’ve never lost, and make sure you leave it all out there on the field, because it will be over sooner than you think."
-Adam Revelette

[CoachKreber]

First of all, I completely understand what you are saying, JD. That is why I wrote, in rather large letters, that I was looking for information on the gyroball. Also, I put it at the attention of pitching coaches!! If you could review that material, I think you will see this clearly. I, like the other readers and moderators, deeply appreciate for belief in keeping young arms safe. The reason I have done so much research in the subject of pitching is to help ALL my players to keep their arms healthy, durable, and strong. Furthermore, the reason for the collection of information is to review it and decide whether it is valid or not. As far as the gyroball is concerned, the jury is still out. I do think hitting it would be very hard.

But, as a coach, I will never apologize for looking for new, different, and uncovered ways of improving my knowledge base. Once this happens there is no room for growth as a coach or person. As you mentioned, if coaches let their ego get it the way of learning and never keep their ears or minds open to new approaches, then their players will begin to receive ineffective instruction. Keep up the good work, JD!

[Chris O'Leary]

Let me ask a very basic question.

How is a gyroball different than a slider?

Based on the movement that Mr. Carroll is describing, it sounds like the movement of most of the sliders I have seen (which tend to both sink down and slide out to a RHP).

It could also be kind of a hybrid of a cutter and a slider. A cut slider?
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[jdfromfla]

Coach please forgive my overt pontificating, I have no higher ground than you, to stand on. As I read and re-read the thread it got to looking like a hard sell so I called it.
Mr. O'Leary poses the same question as my, not so clear second point that nothing is new in baseball. We have a group of wicked slider throwing heat that break for miles and mystify, Carlos Zambrano comes to mind. His, I've seen just float then dart horizontal at about 85+ looks like a rifle bullet...at least in the network slo-mo I've seen.